Needle bearing washers?

[renloy]

When I took my clutch apart there was only one washer in front of the needle bearing. Mikesxs shows Bearing->thin washer (that i have)-> fat washer. I don't see the fat washer/thrust plate.

Could that be why my clutch is grabbing or did they change the setup in 83 xs650s?

[grizld1]

Here's the hardware sequence for the clutch (could we "sticky" this so I don't have to post it again?) Going from the crankcase out, washers are as follows with dimensions in millimeters, ID/OD/Thickness:

1. (against trans. bearing) 25/35/.05
2. 25/50/2
3. Clutch basket and bushing
4. 35/50/.05
5. Needle bearing
6. 25/50/2
7. Clutch hub

[5twins]

Here's the newest picture I just tweaked. OK, now we can sticky it ....

[laotzuistruth]

i just did my clutch and it is on a 1977d. Mikes xs is correct and the book is wrong. When I took out the needle bearing washer, it had a thin washer and thick thrust washer on top of that. As a matter of fact the fat thrust washer was still stuck by the oil on the end of the outter clutch basket.

just an FYI the exploded views do not show the thick washer that I decribed.

On the above exploded view, the thin washer goese between the (g) bearing plate 2 and (f) bearing.

***Edit*** just an additional note to modify the above to emphasize that the parts can go either way. Mikes recommends thick washer, thin washer and needle bearing on the basket, and the book says thick washer, needle bearing and thin washer then clutch basket. Many doubt Mike's claims that his way is better. I don't know as I haven't done "dozens" of clutches. The use of the word "wrong" or "right" is hyperbole and should be recognized as such. Sorry to any I offended.

[grizld1]

Gee, thanks! Glad that after dismantling one clutch assembly, you're in a position to tell us what's what. Clearly I've been doing things wrong on a bunch of engines for years, and I'll bet 5twins is just tickled to be straightened out too.

[5twins]

There are a couple different takes on this washer sequence. Common industrial practice is to sandwich a bearing of this type between the 2 washers and that is how the updated factory shop manual shows it .....



MikesXS recommends the bearing go on first and both washers put on top of it. This places the bearing directly against the inner basket and while it seems to contradict the manual and common practice, Mike claims the clutch works better when assembled in this manner. I may try it - Lord knows I've tried just about every other little clutch tweak in an effort to improve it's function.

[grizld1]

Maybe it's idiot's luck, but over the years XS650 clutches have never given me grief apart from finding cables that didn't require some sort of shimming for my Euro-style bars. Even MMM's short "E-Z Pull" was overlength. That issue was resolved with cable, conduit material, ends, and bar solder from Flanders.

Anything that cuts friction helps lever action. I drilled the lever pivot for a 1/4" ID bronze bushing and tapped 1/4x20 thread into the perch for an appropriate shouldered screw. It makes a difference.

[xsleo]

would adding a second thin washer and bearing at the end of the basket toward the engine side help? you might have to mill off a small amount off the basket to allow the bearing and thin washer to fit. it would put a bearing at both sides off the basket. wouldn't that let the basket spin more freely when you disengage the clutch? if the basket spins freer would it shift and find neutral better?

[CaptDan]

Hey, everybody!
I found the Grinch!

Dec 24, 2008 18:04:40 GMT -5 grizld1 said:

Gee, thanks! Glad that after dismantling one clutch assembly, you're in a position to tell us what's what. Clearly I've been doing things wrong on a bunch of engines for years, and I'll bet 5twins is just tickled to be straightened out too.

[grizld1]

Rats! Dan, ya blew my cover! The current campaign is to rename the holiday "Greedfest," in the interest of truth in labeling. Fat Greedfest to ya, Dan!

Leo, you won't accomplish anything by sticking more hardware behind the basket. It's geared to the crank and doesn't stop turning when the plates separate.

[5twins]

I'll admit, the Griz has been a bit testy lately - but he's not saying anything I don't already feel ......

This is probably one of the biggest and most looked at 650 Yamaha lists in existence. Of course, you need to take any advice you get here with a "grain of salt", but I think you can accept most of it as fact.

As far as this clutch washer thing goes ...... like I said ....... I may try the MikesXS set-up. Nothing else I've read and tried fixed it ........ so what the heck?

As an addendum here (whatever that means), I have to admit that I believe very little of what MikesXS tells me. I've found most of his "Talk" to be just a sales pitch. When I e-mailed or asked on one of these lists, I got the runaround. He sells the parts but will not explain how and why they work. Of course, this is of no concern for a set of points or some swingarm bushings. The problem arises with something like that single points cam or the improved needle bearing for the clutch hub - ask him "WHY" and there is no answer - just "Send Me Your Money"

I would and will buy upgraded parts if only the seller would explain why they are improved. No offense Mike, but you don't. You seem to have missed your calling (Politics) because you never give a straight, honest answer. I'm sick of this. 650-Central, here I come.

[laotzuistruth]

Well happy holidays Well, I must have hallucinated the stacking sequence, or the previous owner put it together wrong?

I haven't done dozens of these type of engine, so one or the other happened. When I saw the mikes information, that gave me comfort, perhaps in error.

The clutch was working fine when I took it apart to rebuild the engine so I will take it apart and remove the flat thin washer I guess and put the bearing directly on the thick thrust washer.

Oh, and happy new year.

edit*** Went ahead and took the clutch back apart, and I did set mine up like mikesxs. I think I'm going to give that way a try, and see how it works. I swear it came apart that way so the previous owner must have did it the same way. I've had this bike for about 16 years but unsure of p.o's.

[grizld1]

Don't succumb to the logical error of the false alternative. If Sequence A is right, it does not follow that Sequence B is wrong; there's often more than one way to skin a cat. I don't know what would be gained by the sequence suggested by Mr. Lalonde, but since I haven't tried it I'm not about to state or imply that it's wrong because it's different from the factory sequence.

[craz1]

Also, at least on my hub, the surface appears to be rougher than the washer. I would think the wear would be greater. You can see the machine marks. I will stick to how the stock unit came apart

[laotzuistruth]

You know its funny. I looked at the same thing when I put mine back together. My hub surface looke nicely machined and smooth. Anyway, I put it together like the way mike's xs stated, and I will post updates if I have any problems with the clutch.

If I die, will someone contact Mikes and tell him I am coming back to haunt him...with a thin washer and bearing in each hand..../boooooooooooo!

Edit**** In efforts to hopefully get a little more information I decided to email mikesxs. this is what I sent:

Believe me I am not trying to open a can of worms here. Is there any way of citing the directions of your part…

Note: Bearing Part #39-6505 (OEM Ref.#93341-23504) consists of - 1. the circular
bearing race and 2. one thin matching washer. Parts books and manuals show this
as 1 part only (not 2 pc.).
The Clutch must be assembled in Sequence shown above - Bearing with its
matching thin washer and then the thick clutch washer (thrust plate).

The reason I am asking about where the information came from, is because I posted this on the xs650 garage forum and I just want to make sure I put it back right. The picture shows the bearing washer on first, then the thin washer, and then the thick washer. When I said that your way was right on the forum a few got offended. I am not trying to get you into any fights here, I just want to make 100% sure I put my clutch together right. Your instructions say to put it this way, then I will. Its just that I am taking 100% of the risk here.

I am not doubting your instructions, I was just hoping to see additional citation that would make me rest a little easier.

Thank you for your time,


I will follow up on if he responds to me and what his citation is.

I am not beating a dead horse, I am just poking at it a little is all... (meaning I want to make damn sure I have things right...or functional...not right...I got into trouble for using that word before).