Needle bearing washers?

[xsleo]

i'm putting my 75 engine back together. when i got far enough to put a clutch on, i got both clutches out. one from the 75, the other from an 82. i decided to use the 82 clutch basket and hub. i checked both for how the bearing and washers were set up . both had a thin washer the bearing and a thick washer. in the order 5twins shows in the picture. so i put the clutch to gether that way. i think the bearing will do it's job better with the harder steel to roll on than steel on one side and the softer aluminimum of the basket or hub. do you suppose that when the bikes were assembled that some were put together with one washer and some with two? hung over from the weekend or in a hurry for the weekend. i used the six thickest clutch plates, from the 75, they all measured over 3 mm thick, the ones from the 82 measured abot 2.8 mm. putting the wire that holds the first steel plate in was a bit of a pain. took about 5 minutes just for that. could have used a few extra hands.

[laotzuistruth]

are the clutch basket parts aluminium? Hell I coulda swore they were metal. If the clutch basket is aluminium then that makes the Mikes XS setup seem even morrrrrre sketchy.

By the way, as predicted Mike's xs has not emailed me at all.

Edit*** as a further note, I also emailed heiden tuning and I also put in a call to 650 central to get some information about this as well. The guy at 650 central was very friendly when I ordered the few parts from him that xs didn't have, and I bet he will return my call.

However, if that part is aluminium I don't think the way Mikes says is best practice at all and I am a bit peeved he would suggest putting it together that way, and I just put the gasket on /frown. I did use silicon gasket so it should come off easily enough.

[laotzuistruth]

Just moments ago I received the email from mikesxs. I posted my email to him earlier and this is his reply.

We provide this instruction because from our own testing, this is the proper way we say to install this bearing for your clutch to work properly and shift better.

Mikes XS

Sooooo, I guess I am going to roll with it and see how it works. He did reply so I am going to leave it and if I notice any funky shifting or neutral finding, I will simply change the order from...

pin bearing washer <thin washer<thick thrust washer

to

thin washer<pin bearing washer<thick thrust washer.

I'm still going through the whole bike but when it gets to clutch feel and testing time, I will update.

[5twins]

Yes, please let us know how this works out. As I said, I may try it next time I have the clutch off. If you examine the inner basket, you'll see it has a steel insert in the center so the bearing would be against that. It has to have a steel center as it runs on that long bushing. If it was just alloy, the hub would probably wear out and get wobbly on the shaft in no time.

[xsleo]

i got my 72 basket and hub out of the box for a closer look. the basket itself is aluminum. it is riveted to a steel gear witrh the cush springs. thie steel part has a steel boss with a dimpled brass bushing. and a steel busing inside that. the hub is aluminum with a steel insert moulded in. the thin roller bearing runs against the steel boss that has the brass bushing. the thin washer fit against the bearing and over the steel bushing. the thin washer can also fit between the bearing and the boss. the thick washer fit against the boss, the center hole is the same size as the center hole in the boss. so you can put them together thin washer , bearing, thick washer. or bearing, thin washer, thick washer. where the hub fits is against the thick washer. if the hub fit right against the bearing, the bearin would run against the tips of the star shaped steel insert of the hub, and the aluminimum hub. the thick washer is there to prevent this. after looking closer i would reccomend using the thin washer, bearing, thick washer set up. that is how mine is now. i may try it the other way after a few hundred miles, to see if there is a difference. i just need to get the jugs bored to fit my new first over pistons. do the valves, pull apart clean, lap, maybe do a little cleanup on the ports. reassemble with the new seals. grind the rocker arm for the elephant feet adjusters. put it together and see how it runs. by the way thanks too all for the info i have gotten here too get this bike back together.

[retiredgentleman]

I have my clutch apart now so I had a look at the washers and bearings. I agree with leo and 5twins, it makes more sense to have the roller thrust bearing between the washers, just as the revised Yamaha drawing shows. It will likely work as mikesxs suggests with the thrust washer against the clutch basket, but I can't see any advantage to doing it that way.

Found that the PO misplaced the first washer from the crankcase on my engine. Anybody got a spare washer?
ID= 0.990" OD= 1.376" Thickness= 0.039" ( 1mm)

[5twins]

Are you talking about the thin washer we've mentioned? If you upgrade to the new needle bearing from Mike's, the one with more needles in it, it comes with a new thin washer. I like the idea of that new bearing with more needles but, honestly, it didn't make any difference in my clutch operation. Mike claims it does but I don't have mine assembled as he suggests, maybe that's why. I do want to try that sometime in the future.

[retiredgentleman]

5twins; No, I'm not talking about the washers on each side of the needle thrust bearing. I have those. The PO lost the very first washer that is next to the crankcase. That allowed the gear on the back of the clutch basket to rub the crackcase slightly. I have pictures of that over on 650rider under "top end rebuild" thread.

jayel has been kind enough to find one and will be sending it to me.

[crazypj22]

Dec 25, 2008 11:18:32 GMT -5 5twins said:

There are a couple different takes on this washer sequence. Common industrial practice is to sandwich a bearing of this type between the 2 washers and that is how the updated factory shop manual shows it .....


MikesXS recommends the bearing go on first and both washers put on top of it. This places the bearing directly against the inner basket and while it seems to contradict the manual and common practice, Mike claims the clutch works better when assembled in this manner. I may try it - Lord knows I've tried just about every other little clutch tweak in an effort to improve it's function.

I sure as hell wouldn't want a hardened steel bearing anywhere near direct contact with a cast alloy part.
I guess Mike is going into production of new baskets?
PJ

[jscribner]

Mar 22, 2009 10:57:25 GMT -5 crazypj22 said:

Dec 25, 2008 11:18:32 GMT -5 5twins said:

There are a couple different takes on this washer sequence. Common industrial practice is to sandwich a bearing of this type between the 2 washers and that is how the updated factory shop manual shows it .....


MikesXS recommends the bearing go on first and both washers put on top of it. This places the bearing directly against the inner basket and while it seems to contradict the manual and common practice, Mike claims the clutch works better when assembled in this manner. I may try it - Lord knows I've tried just about every other little clutch tweak in an effort to improve it's function.

I sure as hell wouldn't want a hardened steel bearing anywhere near direct contact with a cast alloy part.
I guess Mike is going into production of new baskets?
PJ

I reassembled my clutch as MikesXS recommends with the new needle bearing thrust washer against the steel insert of the basket. Clutch operation so far is basically the same as before, but I've only put about 50 miles on my Big Bore rebuild. I have had the speedo pegged, and have worked the gears hard a few times. No slipping, chattering, etc. Didn't even have to adjust anything from before. Will let you know if anything develops.....my steel insert surface was as smooth or smoother than a washer surface.
John Scribner

[zeus]

laotzuistruth:

How was it? is the needle bearing thrust washer placement that mikesxs recomended is working well?

@all:

I am very new with motorcycle and it's very hard to find neutral and change gear if the engine is hot. From my research there is 3 things that cause this trouble:

1. The clutch cable is not properly installed (Most xs user said it's better to install it just like on the picture below)

2. The clutch friction plate is worn and thin need to be replace
3. The clutch behind the small plate on the left side cover need to be adjust

I haven't find someone to help me on checking those above factors .. I am not confident to do it alone. My knowledge is 0% on motorcycle and don't have the proper tools to do it.

I appreciated if someone can assist me and let me know if the needle bearing washer from mikesxs is really helps and if not what is the other option for me? .. and do someone here already try the mikesxs friction and steel drive plate? is it improve better than the stocks?

Thanks

[retiredgentleman]

Adjust at the hand lever for lots of slack in cable. Loosen the lock nut under the small removable plate on the left engine case. Turn the phillips head screw inward until it stops (use gentle turning force), then back it out about 1/8 turn. Re-lock the lock nut. Now adjust the slack at the hand lever for about 1/16" free play. Your clutch is set up for a cold engine.

As you drive the bike and the engine heats up, the free play at the clutch hand lever will increase. Re-adjust the free play back to the original 1/16". Your clutch is now adjusted for a hot engine.
This is so easy to do, I do it while I'm driving.

[slide]

Zeus, first off spend about $20.00 and buy a Clymer or Haynes manual. This will help you get acquainted with your bike and it covers most procedures. The step by step instructions and photos will guide you thru the entire clutch setup. First off, slacken the cable adjuster at the handlebar, remove the left cover carefully, and adjust the clutch pushrod with a screwdriver holding the adjuster and loosen the nut. Next, slowly turn the adjuster out with the screwdriver and screw it back carefully until you feel it touch. Back it out 1/8 turn and tighten the nut without moving the adjustment. the manuals state about 1/4 turn out but I find !Button up the left cover. Lastly, adjust the cable at the handlebar so that there is about 1/8" freeplay. As long as your cable is well lubricated and routed carefully without any sharp bends you should be good to go.
....Mel....

[dps650rider]

OK, what is this wire I have read about in the clutch that holds the first steel plate? Mine doesn't have one and works fine.

[zeus]

Thanks guys for all your reply

For sure I'll try the advices but my question point is the mikesxs new bearing and washer really helps and improve the clutch problem when the engine is hot? .. I planned to put a lot of new stuff on the engine so I need 100% if its worth it and working well cause it's a bit pricy from what I look at on mikesxs

for example:
- New friction plate and steel drive
Part #39-1133 and
Part #39-6507
- High performance High Oil pump Part #05-0044

Let me if I ask on the wrong thread and any input will be appreciated so I don't waste any money for things that are not working well.