electrolysis

[beekay]

I wanted to clean some parts using electrolysis and when I went to pick up some arm and hammer washing soda ... I guess it's been discontinued.
It used to be everywhere, now it's nowhere to be found.
Does anyone know of a good substitute for Sodium Carbonate(?)
or a place where I can get some of the real stuff?

[beekay]

Nevermind .. I think I found some

[srinath]

Yea on the internet as lye ? I got a bunch, turns aluminum black ... but I have some other stuff that will make it shiny again.
I clean carbs with it when I need the nuclear option ... like they have caked up stuff that is like tar.
Cool.
Srinath.

[beekay]

I think lye is different than washing soda

[cafefill]

Sodium carbonate is also known as soda ash, which I recently found out is used in paper mills to adjust the ph of pulp in the pulpers before being turned into paper. We get it in our paper mill in 50 pound bags. How lucky is that? Haven't tried the electrolysis process yet, but I have a rusty old tank that's a good candidate.
Perhaps if a person can't find Arm and Hammer Washing Soda in the grocery store, he could check a chemical supply house. Probably a whole lot cheaper by the pound?
Cafefill

[srinath]

Correct I am so sorry ... LYE is Sodium Hydroxide, Washing soda is sodium Carbonate, also known as quick lime if I recall. Sodium bicarbonate is called slaked lime if I recall.

However I think the electrolysis process is over rated, and I wanna say the muriatic acid method is much easier, faster and much more predicable ... a xs650 tank drain perfectly so you wont ever have any problem. Dump it out, follow with a gallon of hot water, then hot water with baking soda, then few more runs of very hot water ... and it should be clean dry and 100 % perfect for a coating. I coat stuff all the time and that is my preferred method. Just don't do it when its 10 below ... 65+ is great and a nice sunny day and a car you can park in the sun a day or so is extra bonus. Just put in that car and let it cure after coating.

No service for hire is allowed to be posted in other than Links.
This post contained such offers and has been removed from this post for that reason.

Regards Larry Bart
.



Cool.
Srinath.

[tomterrific]

Use phosphoric acid (H3PO4) not muratic acid (HCL). The phosphoric acid converts iron oxide into a black phosphorous compound and leaves a surface similar to Parkerizing. HCL loosenes the rust but the surface flash rusts quickly.

Electrolysis works better on parts rather than the inside of a tank. It still works inside a tank as I used it myself because it is such a cool idea that once I heard about it I had to try it. I plan to set up a bucket next summer and dump any rusty part into the bucket for a while to loosen the rust.

Tom Graham

[srinath]

Sorry and thanks Mods. I didn't remember while posting that.

Phosphoric acid is great for use on a open surface like a frame. Its gotta be down to metal and ironically a wee bit of flash rust is OK for POR15 or Kreem. Though I prefer clean and dry and non flash rusty metal. I have a frame I did phosphoric acid on ~ 8 months ago and its still nice and powdery grey.

Phosphoric acid makes a ton of powdery scaly residue that has to be wire brushed off before any coating can be put on. Yea it wont flash rust but wont take paint either.

Cool.
Srinath.

[bluebikerblan]

Gents - In addition to lot of bikes & lots of years, I'm a degreed chemist (retired) and would like to add my two cents re the acid/electrolysis/coating discussion. Primarily with a concern
for safety in using any of these chemicals. Here's a long standing write up from another forum
that's tried and true in my opinion on using a diluted form of phoshporic acid which is widely used in the Dairy & Food Services Industries called MSR (Milk Stone Remover) which is comparatively safe to use, readily available and comparatively inexpensive.....Best, Blue

Gas Tank Cleaning with Milk Stone Remover - MSR
Rust Removal with Phosphoric Acid based 'Milk Stone Remover'


This tip is from another forum.....I too had mixed results using electrolysis and Kreem and was better pleased with MSR (Milk Stone Remover) and a tank lining product called Red Kote which used to be red but now is blue in color. The tip is written by Bill Lane and posted on a CB 45O forum

"MSR is about 70% phosphoric acid, with an orange dye. Mix it 50% with water, fill the tank, come back later. It will save even the worse tanks. It's hell on rust, won't touch chrome. It will mess up paint if left long enough. Some tanks will get de-funkified in a few hours, some may take much longer - days or even a week or more, if they're really nasty. Those of you who have used Naval Jelly to remove rust are already familiar with how phosphoric acid removes (reduces)
rust by reducing red iron (ferric oxide) to loose black (ferrous) oxide and iron phosphate (also gray-black)

It (MSR) is also way less dangerous than muriatic (hydrochloric) or sulfuric acid to work with. If you get some on you, at least you have a chance to make it inside and rinse it off before it burns the livin' snot out of you. No noxious fumes either. I'm a degreed chemist, I've seen what acids can do, so I stay with MSR, it's much safer to work with.

I've also had unsatisfactory results with electrolysis. It works "line of sight", meaning that if the sacrificial electrode can't "see" the area nothing will happen . That means that convoluted volumes or parts (like tanks) will yield indifferent results. MSR also works better on flat pieces. I keep a big 60-quart cooler full of MSR solution which I process nearly everything with it. Some people claim it leaves some sort of protective coating that prevents further rust. I have not found that to be the case at all. In my experience, you can see the rust re-forming before your very eyes. So, you need to quickly either paint the piece, spray with WD 40 or light oil. For a tank case, fill quickly (or swish around) some heavy 2-stroke gas/oil mixture to coat it while you prepare to do something else with it.

Everyone has a favorite tank "sealer" - I prefer Red-Kote myself, use what you prefer. Although Red-Kote has changed recently, it's now blue, but the same stuff. If you go with Red-Kote, mix it down a bit with acetone to make it easier to use. The stuff is really viscous out of the can." -endquote-

Other tank lining products are POR 15 , which a lot of people like as well. And Kreem, both are products I have used with difficulty and mixed results.

Milk Stone Remover, MSR, is available from a variety of Dairy Service products suppliers. I found and purchased MSR from a localTractor Supply store.

Hope this helps with a rather messy and onerous task at best, It did for me and was clearly the best to use of the bunch for me. Best, Blue

[srinath]

I have 2 questions for you.
Does red-kote stand up to 450 farenheight for 20-25 mins. I need to powdercoat them and usually prefer to do it after.
Does MSR leave a lot of ashy deposit or does it leave clean etched phosphate coated steel, to which red kote should adhere well. Cos phosphoric acid is great, just dont like the dusty ashy crap it leaves behind.

Cool.
Srinath.

[bluebikerblan]

Question #1 No I do not believe that Red Kote would take that temperature. POR-15 would likely be a better bet.

Question #2 The "deposit" you're refering to is actually the rust (ferric oxide) which is reduced/converted to either ferrous oxide (which is black) or iron phosphate (grey) POR-15 actually encapsulates this and the adhesion is quite good. I've seen POR-15 used very successfully as a frame coating instead of powder coating. Works great btw.

I'd check with the suppliers re both questions btw but....I wouldn't use Red Kote if you're planning on exposing it to those temps. Moreover...I've only used it as a tank liner and I like it a lot for that purpose. Best, Blue

[srinath]

I have dont lots of POR15, I hate the fact that its "permanent" and in one tank I have its comming loose. Impossible to get out ... But have not found anythign else that will stand that temp. Kreem will not, this tank that I am dealing right now had Kreem in it that cooked and melted and burned. Yea I powdercoat all the metal parts on a bike ... tanks yup.

The loose stuff is fine on a frame where you can wipe or sand, I am doing POR15 and hardnose on a frame right now ... or will as soon as it breaks 60 degrees. The problem is getting it out of a tank. Now the acid that POR people give you also dumps a bit of ashy residue ... but its so minimal if applied dilute to a rust free tank and washing the tank gets it out ... that its not been a problem. That is why I do muriatic acid foillowed by that and then do POR15.
POR15 actually prefers to bond to zinc metabi-sulphate (as per those guys @ POR15) and while it is grey, its not iron phosphate.
Cool.
Srinath.

[bigjimmyw13]

BTW if ya'll want soda ash go to a pool supply store and ask for some. After that post I got lost...

[srinath]

Oh yea we went off to what method is better ... waaaaay past electrolysis now ...
Cool.
Srinath.

[bigjimmyw13]

Well just throwing it out there. If there was still a need for soda ash then best place to buy it would be at a pool company