ZDDP and Pennzoil

[pamcopete]

BULLETIN: Read skidros report from Castrol on page 2 about Diesel! SHOCKING!


I sent an Email to PennZoil asking about the content of Zinc in their oil. Here is their reply:

Thank you for your interest in our products.
You are correct the zinc in the ZDDP package for motor oil additives has been reduced recently to help protect catalytic converters on today's vehicles. Basically any oils prior to the API SM (such as SL, SJ, SH, etc.) will have at least 1000ppm zinc. The Pennzoil oils with an API SM rating will have the reduced zinc content (800-850ppm) while those such as the Pennzoil Outdoor Motorcycle Motor Oil in both SAE 10W-40 and SAE 20W-50 with the API SH will have 1100-1200ppm zinc. Other oils containing higher zinc levels will be any oil with a diesel rating, API CI-4 or CJ-4. The Shell Rotella SAE 15W-40 contains 1100-1200ppm zinc and Pennzoi Racing Motor Oil SAE 25W-50 has 1980ppm zinc.
Sincerely
Product Technical Service, ah

Here is an update from Pennzoil regarding ZDDP: (The italics are mine)

Mr. Peter McLean; As mentioned the API SM rated oils found on the shelves today have the reduced ZDDP content to help protect the catalyst in the catalytic converters.

The additives in these oils are sufficient to protect the metal surfaces found in the majority of flat tappet engines. The biggest concerns are for high compression engines with high pressure springs and those engines with inferior quality or improperly heat treated steels. These engines may suffer excessive wear using the reduced ZDDP oils. This explains why many thousands of motorcycles and automobiles with flat tappet systems have been using the SM rated oils with no adverse affects.

The Pennzoil Motorcycle Motor Oils, diesel rated motor oils and
racing motor oils, since not formulated for use in vehicles with
catalytic converters may continue to contain the higher zinc and
phosphorous levels in their ZDDP packages.
Product Technical Service, ah

[tomterrific]

Hi Pete,

In general I buy and suggest motorcycle oil because I believe the ZDDP content is higher than car oil. The motorcycle oil is only 50 cents more per quart. Is Pennzoil car oil that much less than their motorcycle oil?

Pennzoil racing oil has enough ZDDP that it could be used as an anti wear oil suppliment!

Thanks,
Tom

[pamcopete]

tomterrific,

Well, online by the case (12 qts) the PennZoil motorcycle oil is $3.30 a qt plus shipping. Regular Pennzoil is $3.00 / qt plus shipping.

I can buy the automotive PennZoil locally at most Auto Supply stores for < $3, plus tax but no shipping cost.

The Automotive PennZoil 10W40 and 20W50 used to be SH rated and was advertised as suitable for older cars. Now it is SM rated, so I may have to reconsider and start using the PennZoil Motorcycle oil.

With only 2 qts for a change, cost is not that important anyway, but I don't want to be paying $6 or $7 for a quart of oil either, so the Pennzoil motorcycle oil might be the answer, especially since I have been using Pennzoil all these years.

[Burns]

I bought 2.5 gallons of Rotella 15-40 at Wallyworld yesterday for 25.05.

[grepper]

Wow, that's like 10 oil changes

[xsjohn]

Well if you want the best of both worlds try 1 guart of Valvoline VR1 20-50 1900 or so ppm Zddp and 1 quart Rotella T 15/40 maybe 1300 ppm zddp mixed......ah wtf......xsjohn

[Burns]

Seems to me that ZDDP in oil is like octane rating in gasolene. You need what your need and you don't get anything extra paying for more than you need.

Octane is easy, the motor will tell you when it needs more and it will tell you so personally by singing telegram. With ZDDP a little extra margin is called for since the "I need more" message that the motor mails to you will be expensive to remove from its envelop.

So, doesn't it make sense to get ZDDP levels that have historically proven to do the job and add a tad for safety? For our twin what does the job, according to Pete's personal history with the old formula Pennz, and the email from Pennz giving us the levels, is around 1100.

Rotella 15-40 at 1100 to 1200 and $2.50 a quart seems to hit all the numbers.

[pamcopete]

Burns,

I'm going to order up some Pennzoil Motorcycle oil. Time to change.

I'm not going to recommend any particular oil at this time because I will be starting over and it takes years of use to be able to recommend an oil, especially with a wet clutch.

I'm going to Email the same guy at Pennzoil and try to get more info on their Motorcycle oil. It might be the same as the automotive oil I was using before with an SH rating.

Here's what I got so far:

PENNZOIL® MOTORCYCLE MOTOR OILS are premium quality lubricants specially designed to protect motorcycle engines. They are formulated with a unique additive package chosen for exceptional wear protection, sludge and varnish resistance, and thermal stability. A special anti-foaming agent is included to reduce foaming and air entrainment at high engine speeds. This is particularly critical in high speed motorcycle engines, which can reach 12,000 rpm. Many motorcycles use the same oil for both the engine and transmission. Transmission gears place extremely high stress on the lubricating oil which can cause viscosity breakdown. PENNZOIL® MOTORCYCLE MOTOR OIL is formulated to resist this stress and provide outstanding protection against viscosity breakdown. When all these components are combined with Pennzoil's high quality petroleum basestocks, the result is a premium quality motor oil that meets the specific demands of motorcycle engines.

PENNZOIL® MOTORCYCLE MOTOR OIL is available in SAE grades 10W-40 and 20W-50 to cover the viscosity requirements for most manufacturers and climates.

[pamcopete]

Here is an update from Pennzoil regarding ZDDP: (The italics are mine)

Mr. Peter McLean; As mentioned the API SM rated oils found on the
shelves today have the reduced ZDDP content to help protect the
catalyst in the catalytic converters.

The additives in these oils are
sufficient to protect the metal surfaces found in the majority of
flat tappet engines. The biggest concerns are for high compression
engines with high pressure springs and those engines with inferior
quality or improperly heat treated steels. These engines may suffer
excessive wear using the reduced ZDDP oils. This explains why many
thousands of motorcycles and automobiles with flat tappet systems
have been using the SM rated oils with no adverse affects.

The Pennzoil Motorcycle Motor Oils, diesel rated motor oils and
racing motor oils, since not formulated for use in vehicles with
catalytic converters may continue to contain the higher zinc and
phosphorous levels in their ZDDP packages.
Product Technical Service, ah

My comment:
It's not like there isn't any ZDDP in a SM rated oil. It's just been reduced by about 30% and is adequate for most flat tappet engines.

[Burns]

On behalf of everybody, thank you for carrying the ball on providing real data on this topic Pete.

If I'm putting this all together correctly, the new automotive Pennz is probably fine for an XS with stock valve springs and stock or close to stock compression and the M/C Pennz the better choice for modified engines.

For the XS I doubt that the auto Pennz is any better than the Rotella, with its higher ZDDP numbers. But without evidence that is no more than speculation. There certainly is, as you say, more to good oil than ZDDP ppm numbers. Still a lot of folks have been running and recommending the Rotella for years.

It is hard to say how close the new auto Pennz is to the old. I doubt very much that they are using crude pumped from PA anymore, which was once reputed to be the best crude in the world for lubrication. I'd guess the Pennz crude stock now has its home in Veneszuela and essentially crude stocks are fungible. I'm open to being eduated on that of course.

I do not have a high-stress application (stock engine, mildly driven) so the cost:benefit for me favors the Rotella over the Pennz M/C and is about a break-even with the Pennz auto, with the tie going to the Rotella for its ZDDP numbers. This is particulary true at the moment since I have 2.5 gallons of it sitting in the garage. But I have no emotional investment in any brand except Yamaha (nobody's a perfect scientist).

So, its Rotella for me, at least until I go through this jug (my Miata has a rear main leak, so that may not be all that long).

What's in your sump Pete? Auto or M/C?

[pamcopete]

Burns,

Well, I had just changed the oil to Pennzoil auto 20W50 when this discussion started, but as I noted a couple of posts ago, I had decided to switch to Pennzoil Motorcycle for the ZDDP and for a couple of other characteristics of the oil, such as improved anti foaming agents, but that was before I received the latest Email from Pennzoil and his statement that auto Penzzoil is OK for flat tappet engines other than high compression or stiff valve springs.

Now, I think I would stay with Pennzoil auto due to the reasons mentioned earlier, except that I had already ordered a case of the motorcycle oil!

Otherwise, I would continue to use the Pennzoil Auto 20W50.

[Burns]

That follows from the reasoning of your posts (other than having a case of the m/c). If you were running stiffer valve springs I suppose the auto oil would slip from first choice.

[crazypj22]

I have to do 'technical training' as part of my job.
Last year we had guy from Royal Purple come in for couple of hours to lecture us.
Basically, they say bottom limit for ZDDP to be ~100% is about 1400ppm and top limit is about ~1800ppm.
Above 1800ppm there is no benefit and below 1400ppm wear does increase.
Below 1000ppm wear increases noticeably.
I'll have to dig the notes out but I think the tests were done on various motors, warmed over street to full race.
'They' were pretty reticent on motorcycle oils, (still carrying out tests for wet clutch motors at the time)
It's expensive, but, the people working for Royal Purple leave oil in motor for 10,000 miles, (in their own bike's cars, trucks, etc)
Company vehicles have done much higher mileage with just top up's
Guess it's OK if company will pay for re-build if something goes wrong ;D (probably write it off as long term R&D?)

PJ

[pamcopete]

crazy,

Well, it's not just the ZDDP content, or dirt in the oil that determines the change interval. With non synthetics, its the mechanical breakup of the polymers due to the crushing action of the roller and ball bearings in high stress and high mechanical pressure areas, such as the crank and connecting rod bearings, as well as the sheering action of the gears in a setup like the XS650 that shares the oil with the transmission.

As you probably know, it's the polymers that give multi viscosity oil its multi viscosity characteristic. When the molecular chains of polymers break apart from the pressure and sheering action, the oil reverts to its base viscosity, which can actually be lower than the low number in the designation 20W50, as an example.

I can see this breakdown with my oil pressure gage as the pressure gets lower and lower with accumulated miles, so I change oil every 1,000 miles based on the oil pressure and general appearance of the oil.

I think that when people talk about installing a paper oil filter so they can stretch the miles between changes, they are kidding themselves. There is no remedy for the polymer destruction.

[Burns]

Pete, are you saying you have a discernible drop in oil pressure in 1000 miles?


If so I think it would be worth experimenting with an oil recommended for diesel applications. I imagine the internal loads on those mega-compression engines is significantly higher (though they don't have to contend with gearboxes).

It would be interesting to note if the odomoter got more or fewer clicks before the drop was noticable.

These sleds don't have a heck of a lot of oil pressure to measure, so any visible drop is probably significant.