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Post by BubbaLeone on Jan 15, 2012 13:31:57 GMT -5
447 Dimensions Just picked up this Trackmaster frame in a trade, and am now planning the build parts, for a modified "447" motor, to go in it. I don't have a motor yet but I want to look at some different crank-stroke/rod-length ratios, and corresponding piston pin heights. What I'd like to know is if anyone has a bare cylinder, a good pair of calipers, and wouldn't mind giving me a cylinder height dimension (base of cylinder to head surface)? Thanks! |
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Post by crazypj22 on Jan 15, 2012 16:33:14 GMT -5
Not sure why you want block dimension but 447 I just measured is 3.767". First one I measured was 3.700" but I've chopped it about a bit (800 long rod motor  ) |
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Post by BubbaLeone on Jan 15, 2012 21:54:14 GMT -5
Not sure why you want block dimension but 447 I just measured is 3.767". First one I measured was 3.700" but I've chopped it about a bit (800 long rod motor ) If I'm calculating dimensions for a long-rod motor I need to know the "deck height"; the dimension from the centerline of the crank to the cylinder head mating surface. So you're absolutely right; the cylinder height doesn't do me much good without knowing the upper crankcase height as well!  I'm looking for "stock" part dimensions. Is the "3.767" dimension from a stock cylinder? I really appreciate your help. |
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Post by crazypj22 on Jan 16, 2012 11:59:42 GMT -5
Long rod motor is exactly the same as normal 447, unless you use a piston with a lower pin position and fit a spacer under block.
You use a longer rod and shorter piston which is lighter even though it's a lot larger diameter.
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Post by BubbaLeone on Jan 16, 2012 13:10:10 GMT -5
Problem is, I don't yet have a 447 motor sitting on my workbench. Which is why I originally asked if anyone had an old stock cylinder they could measure up for me, and then realized I also needed the upper case height in order to calculate the total deck height.
Not trying to be a pain...just wanted to crunch some numbers while I'm locating a motor with matching assembly numbers. Complete motors I've looked at so far have had mismatched case numbers or mismatched head/rocker cover numbers. I'm a journeyman machinist so I'm particular about that stuff.
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jack
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by jack on Jan 16, 2012 19:04:59 GMT -5
If your attentions are to use the CR500 rod,then you need to look for a piston with a compression height .970 to .1020 and depending on the actual cylinder block height,you may need to cut if for 0 deck. On the .970 CH you will no doubt have to cut the cylinder block deck height. A piston with a C/H of .998 without B/G will give o deck based on my cylinder block height
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Post by crazypj22 on Jan 16, 2012 22:06:40 GMT -5
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Post by BubbaLeone on Jan 19, 2012 15:38:14 GMT -5
I was trying to think of a better way to describe the "Deck Height" measurement I need so I came up with this... Deck Height:  |
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Post by grizld1 on Jan 19, 2012 23:04:05 GMT -5
Tomorrow I'll try to get some bench space cleared for plate glass and a clean upper case half and see if I can get a repeatable number for you. My caliper isn't the best, but I should be able to get within +/- .0015".
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Post by grizld1 on Jan 20, 2012 17:20:53 GMT -5
What makes things interesting is that the crankcase split line doesn't run parallel to the cylinder mating surface. When I pulled my bits and pieces to take measurements I found that I didn't have a case upper with the studs pulled; the best I could do was to measure from the case just in front and in back of the bearing journal and average the numbers for an approximate centerline measurement. What I got was 4.336". All I had to work with was a dial caliper that's mediocre at best, so I don't have a lot of confidence in the accuracy of that figure; wouldn't trust it closer than +/-.01" in fact. But it should be close enough to correct any error with a bit of milling or gasket selection.
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Post by BubbaLeone on Jan 20, 2012 18:27:13 GMT -5
.....wouldn't trust it closer than +/-.01" in fact. But it should be close enough to correct any error with a bit of milling or gasket selection. I really appreciate all the trouble you went to for me. Not having a 447 motor yet, and being 39 years since I last tore one down, I'd forgotten that the split on the case halves isn't parallel to the cylinder face. So +/- .010 is plenty close grizld1...even if it was +/- .030 it would still work for what I'm doing...Thanks so very much for your help!! |
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Post by grizld1 on Jan 20, 2012 18:46:15 GMT -5
It was no trouble at all. Thanks for the contributions you're making to the board!
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Post by BubbaLeone on Jan 24, 2012 21:17:51 GMT -5
crazypj22 and grizld1...you guys are awesome! The measurements you each gave me are within .002" of the measurements I took today. I made some calls yesterday and located an old boy out in Estacada that runs a small motorcycle salvage. Said he thought he might have some old 650 pieces but I'd have to come out and look around myself, seeing as he was in the midst of a three-day cocktail hour. I loaded up my small granite surface plate, sine bar, height gage, and dial-indicator, then headed out his way. He was in high "spirits" when I arrived and took me right out to his little storage building. After about 15 minutes of digging around I'd found both a stock upper case, and cylinder block. A few minutes with some gasoline and a rag and I was ready to take some measurements. 30 minutes later I'd got what I came for, and before I left he graciously accepted a fifth of Jack Daniels in consideration of his hospitality. All in all a good day. These are the stock dimensions: Angle between upper crankcase mating surface and cylinder mating surface = 10 degrees Crankshaft centerline to cylinder mating surface = 4.335" Overall height of cylinder block = 3.765" So now when I want to calculate for different rod lengths and piston pin heights, or quench clearance, I know the stock deck height = 4.335 + 3.765 = 8.1000" + base gasket or spacer thickness. And if I need to resurface the cylinder mount, bore the case for oversize sleeves, or setup for helicoils on the studs, I just set the old sine bar to 10 degrees and I'm good to go. Now, I just gotta' call Falicon....No!..gotta' find a damn motor first!  
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Post by riksoto on Apr 27, 2012 11:33:17 GMT -5
If you call Michael @ 650central.com 209-533-4346 he is getting forged pistons and kawasaki rod kits. The rods are 1mm longer than cr500, lighter, and stronger than stock 447 . The pistons are 80mm with 1mm compression rings. The reduced weight of these parts should make it come very close to balanced.
Good Luck with your project
Riksoto
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Post by kopcicle on Jul 3, 2012 14:31:56 GMT -5
Okay time to do a little necro-posting before I start my own thread .
8.1" = 205.740 mm
half the stroke = 37mm
Cr 500 rod = 144mm
MTC-K1327H compression height = 24.8793
205.740 mm deck
-205.8793 assembled height
+0.1393 mm
or 0.0054"
Think I'm close enough to worry it into spec with head and base gaskets ? :-)
~kop
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