Racing ignition

[framer750]

Any racers out there? 
I am starting a build on a xs650 based engine that will be used exclusively for flat track racing.  I'm experienced at engine building/tuning but this is my first xs650.  I have been doing a lot of research but I've been coming up a little short on which ignition system to use.  The engine I'm starting with is a 1980 unit out of a "special".  Stock ignition is electronic and I'd like to stick with electronic for its reliability mostly.  I would also like to run without a battery to save weight.

There's a few systems out there to choose from but are there any that are more suitable for racing than others?  Also, would one of these PMA alternators be an improvement over the stock 1980 unit (I know very little about the nature of the stock alternator/stator unit).  Some say there is a worth while weight savings with these new PMA alternators.  I would also like to set up this engine to be used with a remote starter which has an affect on the set up of the 'flywheel' side of the engine.   So far all the electronic systems I'm seeing have fixed advance curves.  Does anyone make one with a variable curve?  If all the aftermarket systems have fixed curves, would a new set up be any improvement over stock?  Also I have not run my engine yet, I bought it in parts but the previous owner was riding the bike before he took it apart so I'm assuming the ignition system works.  Is it possible to run stock 1980 electronic ignition without a battery?  I have Craig Weeks manual but some of these questions he does not specifically address.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanx,
Robert 

[jetmechmarty]

Nov 1, 2013 19:06:03 GMT -5 framer750 said:

Is it possible to run stock 1980 electronic ignition without a battery? 
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanx,
Robert 

[/p][/quote]

No. You will have to go with a PMA.

As for the ignition, look here:
Probe Engineering, Inc.

Don't hesitate. I believe they are no longer building these.

Please note that I have no direct experience with this product. I am recommending it only based on hearsay.

[jetmechmarty]

I just read a little more carefully. I'm really not sure if the ignition will fire without a battery. The alternator definitely needs the battery.

[grizld1]

Marty, Mark Whitebook's Probe Engineering is alive and well, and the system can be ordered either directly from Probe or from Bore Tech. An advantage of the Probe system for competition is that the the retard trim can be set wherever you want it. Many race ignitions are fixed at full advance.

Robert, the usual practice in racing is to remove the alternator entirely and run total loss off a battery. This conserves weight and eliminates the load that the alternator puts on the engine. Re. ignition, I'd think you'd want a system that puts out more juice than the OE TCI.

[preston]

Call Pete and ask him: www.yamahaxs650.com/ or [e-mail]
also
Contact:
Hughs Hand Built about PMA, and ignition systems: ( his PMA, does not need a battery, and he is very smart about these things, and gives support , advice and guidance ,, i have not purchased a PMA yet, but Hugh's will get my order, when the time comes.
hughshandbuilt.com/

Preston

[jetmechmarty]

Nov 1, 2013 20:41:43 GMT -5 grizld1 said:

Marty, Mark Whitebook's Probe Engineering is alive and well, and the system can be ordered either directly from Probe or from Bore Tech. An advantage of the Probe system for competition is that the the retard trim can be set wherever you want it. Many race ignitions are fixed at full advance.

I noted the following on the Bore-Tech site:

- As of September 1, 2013, Probe Engineering will no longer be producing electronic ignition kits.

Due to continued increases in cost of the electronic components along with a stagnant economy, Probe Engineering is unable to produce the high quality ignitions at a reasonable price and still be profitable. We have our doubts that we will find another supplier for our ignitions anytime soon. There is nothing currently available that would be comparable to the Probe Engineering systems. We are sorry for the loss of a valuable supplier to the Vintage Motorcycle market.

Sold out!

[mrriggs]

Craig Weeks came over to my place one day to discuss building a battery-less magneto ignition to replace the discontinued ARD ignition. I worked on it for a few weeks and dug up the parts for a prototype, but never heard back from him so it didn't go any further. It has no advance because you really don't need it on a race bike. Hell, you don't even need it on a street bike.

If you want to do a PMA instead of a magneto then get a SPARX and not a Banshee style. The SPARX has a tiny light weight rotor, much less spinning mass.

[grizld1]

Thanks for the correction and update, Marty. It hasn't been very long since I was last in contact with Mark, so the news is a surprise.

[Burns]

I'm sure the light flywheel is the way to go for roadrace, but is that also true for flat-track? The folk-wisdom is that you need some fly-wheel to soften the power-delivery for the steel-shoe sliders.

BTW I've had Mr.R's bracket on my RD-wheeled pma for several trouble-free years (and a couple different motors) and swear by the ND component set up for a street bike.

[spokewheel]

Probe Engineering, Inc. is not discontinuing its line of ignitions for the XS650 twins.  They have systems designed for the stock 360-degree crank engines, as well as for the rephased 270-degree and 277-degree crank engines.  All of the Probe ignitions require use of a battery.

[grizld1]

That's great news, Mark. Thanks for clearing things up!

[tony101bikes]

Take a look at Electrex World's crank mounted, self generating, electronic ignition set up. Their part number is STK-465.

[grizld1]

Interesting; crank fired ignition is definitely more stable, all other things being equal. The cheaper version of the 465 comes to about $400 US shipped if I'm reading things right, and since the setup includes both ignition and alternator, that's very cheap--cheap enough that I'm inclined to be suspicious of quality. More specs on both the charging system and ignition would be useful, as would some user reviews.

[tony101bikes]

Don't worry about their quality. They do a whole range of replacement rotors, stators and reg boxes. They're number one for replacement electricals in the UK and they've been around a while. The stuff is designed in house and they'll be happy to chat to you.

[grizld1]

Sounds really good, Tony. Thanks for putting us onto Electrex, they're pretty much unknown on this side of the pond.