Post by mashermoto on Mar 22, 2017 21:15:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words Preston
It's actually fun for me to do this and I am glad others are enjoying the ride. When I named this thread Mashermoto's big street tracker adventure, I didn't know the adventure would go from a bike purchase on fleabay and a trip to Kansas to get it, to all the modifications performed with the assistance from some very knowledgeable people on this board, to an ignition system that actually made it into the market place, to a stolen bike that is miraculously recovered seven years later and just days after it shows up in a bike salvage shop, to where we are now.
Uh oh...calling on Pete for sage advise I have been trying for a week to get this engine to kick off and the best I can get is a few sputters.
The picture below shows the ignition plate in the retard position as far as I can get it. When I connect a timing light and turn the engine over with the electric starter, the timing is still to the advance side of the firing mark (left of the firing mark). The more I moved the timing closer to the fire mark the attempts to start were better, but I can't go any further. BTW, the blue F on the halo unit is where I marked the magnet that triggers spark. When I talk about timing marks I'm referring to the alternator marks.
What am I doing wrong
Here are other things I have done.
This 277 cam was ground 180 degrees out of phase from stock. The lobs are correct, but when I align the original alignment marks to install the cam, the left side lobes are in the up position (overlap position) rather than the down position (compression position). It still works this way because the engine ran good when it was started with the original Pamco Pete ignition we built. But in order to get the halo magnet to line up I had to flip the advance alignment.
This is a fuzzy picture of the standard advance alignment. Blue line aligns with the mark shown with my pointer.
This is how it looks with the advance alignment flipped. This allows the halo magnet to be at the low horizontal position.
I've tried the other ways of setting up the ignition and even hooked up a dial gage and made sure the cam wasn't mis-aligned. Other than modifying the backing plate or halo unit, I'm a bit out of ideas
In the meantime, while we wait on Pete's recommendation, here is some of the other stuff I've done.
Front and side number plates are mounted again.
Because crackhead did something unknown with the original set I had to fabricate side cover mounts from scratch. That was a lot of measuring, cutting and bending But once again I can use the number plates just like the side covers
I got the front and rear brakes bled and functioning. That bottle on the fender with the clear tubes hooked into the bleed zert is my new favorite friend. You can just open the zert and start pumping the brake lever. All the bubbles go to the top and excess fluid goes in the bottle If you haven't found these yet, they are in the auto parts stores.
This is how I used it on the front brakes.
This is a bummer I had to change out the rear master cylinder and in the process broke both rear brake light wires...those wires were as brittle as a cracker Oh well...just more parts, right $$$$
The main thing to do is to "walk" the engine through the complete phases of operation and check where the spark occurs for each cylinder. Any mistake in the 16 possibilities can mean no spark. However, if you have two mistakes, they will cancel, except for the choice of which slot to use in the rotor.
Post by mashermoto on May 10, 2017 22:28:42 GMT -5
I'm sure I found the right install by moving the advance alignment 180 degrees from standard. The Web Cam 277 59 grind I got was ground 180 degrees out of phase from standard. So what I have is the only way it will work.
I do get a spark, it's just that I can't get the timing plate to move far enough to get the spark on the timing mark. It's a bit advanced. At least that is what I think is happening. I don't think I ran into this problem with the original Pamco ignition because the copper rotor could be moved 360 degrees and I just set the timing by moving it around.
It may be that the cam is not only 180 degrees out of phase, but also a bit out of position for timing alignment. Tomorrow I will try an experiment based on how I simply moved the rotor on the original system to get the timing right. I'm going to:
1. Move the ignition plate back to the middle position. 2. Pull the halo rotor out from the alignment pin and slightly turn the rotor in the direction needed. 3. Secure the halo rotor by lightly pressing it against the alignment pin with the nut that holds the rotor on the shaft. 4. Check timing with a strobe and adjust the rotor as needed until correct timing is achieved. 5. Carefully mark the position of the rotor and drill a new alignment hole.
The hitch to this experiment is whether or not the magnets will trigger a coil spark with the rotor moved that far back. I'll soon find out.
After sleeping on my idea to adjust the timing by moving the rotor around, I think there is an easier way that eliminates the problem of the magnets being too far away from the sensor. That is to simply remove the advance rod alignment pin and just move the rotor wherever I need it to be. This will allow me 360 degrees of adjustment like the original Pamco ignition. I only need to get the rotor close enough so that I can make the fine adjustment with the ignition plate.
If that works I could try to re-drill an alignment hole in the rotor, but that may not be necessary. The alignment hole now isn't a press fit, so what really holds the rotor in place is the mounting nut that press the rotor against the advance rod. So it would be easier to just find the sweet spot with the rotor position without the advance rod pin and lock the rotor down.
After work and taking the kids to CrossFit today, I'll give it a try and report success or fail.
Post by mashermoto on May 11, 2017 21:56:38 GMT -5
And the result is....Success and fail
I got the advance rod alignment installed as standard.
Removed the advance rod ignition side alignment pin.
Moved the ignition plate to the middle position and set the timing spot on with a strobe by moving the rotor and locked it all down.
Once again made sure the cam rotation was correct and set the valve tappet clearance.
Once again made sure the plugs were firing.
Unfortunately none of this made a difference I got a few sputters and some backfires, but it just won't kick off. Being that the plugs come out wet, I think I have an ignition problem, but I just don't see the problem yet.
Post by mashermoto on May 14, 2017 19:45:22 GMT -5
Okay...remember in the last posts I thought I had an ignition problem because the plugs were wet when I pulled them out? Yeah, well, I didn't think that one through all the way
I went as far as installing the original Pamco Pete ignition system, and had a little bit of luck with the engine wanting to bust off, but I quit after something went wrong with the starter system. Parts are on order, so now I wait
In the meantime, I took a closer look at the carburetors and found the float settings were off on both carburetors. The right side was off enough that the fuel valve wasn't closing off and fuel leaked into the crankcase and diluted my new 2.5 quarts of oil Memo to self: never assume new carburetors are shipped with correct float height adjustments
So I completely tore down the carburetors, cleaned everything in solvent and carb cleaner, and set the float levels. But were not done yet. After installing the carburetors I notice I had originally installed the slides backwards...the slide cut was on the inside rather than the outside Somehow I got the slide for the right carburetor crossed up with the slide for the left. So no wonder I was getting wet plugs and only sputters when attempting to start. I guess the only way I could have flooded this engine any more would be to pour fuel in the engine straight from a gas can
So I am going dark again until some starter parts show up
Last Edit: May 14, 2017 19:47:39 GMT -5 by mashermoto
Post by mashermoto on May 18, 2017 20:26:18 GMT -5
Once again I got good news and bad news. First the good news
I got the engine to start today On about the third attempt with the kick starter it busted off.
Now the bad news...kick starting is not an option for Masher. With 13:1 pistons, Masher just doesn't have enough lead in his pencil to do that nonsense anymore And, it appears the starter motor is damaged and will not respond to the starter button.
Here is the deal. One of the brushes got hot and burned up the brush retaining spring. It's shown in the picture on the right.
But the bigger problem is where to get the retainer springs? Mikes sells brushes, but no mention of retainer springs sold with the brushes. The Yamaha OEM parts manuals show the brushes and the brush holder assembly (mounting plate), but doesn't say if the springs come with either. I suppose it doesn't really matter because Yamaha OEM parts aren't available for either.
So what's a brother to do? Does this mean I have to take a chance on a used starter motor on Flea Bay just because that stinking spring is obsolete? If anybody knows, please let me know.
Post by mashermoto on May 24, 2017 21:58:11 GMT -5
Another starter motor arrived from Flea Bay yesterday and cleaned up real nicely
It was advertised as for parts only because it was untested and had a crack on the end case. I used the case from my original starter, cleaned it all up and got it installed. It turned out to be a much better starter. Tomorrow I will replace the engine oil and see if this bike is going to run.
Post by mashermoto on May 25, 2017 21:49:03 GMT -5
IT'S ALIVE!!! The engine busted off on the second or third try. Sounds awesome and grabs RPM like crazy
Still got a few things to work out. Idle definitely needs to be smoothed out. The engine idles high and then drops to a stall out.
I noticed the battery doesn't allow too many start attempts...wonder what type of battery the rest of you have had good luck? I got a feeling the one I got at Batteries Plus may not have enough cold cranking amps.
For those of you that know batteries, here are the specs:
Brand: Duracell Ultra
Lead Acid Type: Starting
Cold Cranking Amps: 220
I also noticed the left side spark plug gets consistent fire, but the right side appears to skip sometimes Primary and secondary coil readings were normal, but I suppose it could still be the coil breaking down...hope not...that Crane coil was expensive. I am still running the original Pamco Pete ignitions system (changed out when I was having carburetor issues and didn't know it), so I guess I need to put the new Pamco ignition back in to see if that solves the problem. If I'm still getting skipped plug fire, I'll have to take a closer look at those coils
Post by ignitionsystem on May 30, 2017 7:28:35 GMT -5
It's amazing that the original PAMCO 277 system still works! In your description of attempting to set the position of the rotor by removing the locating pin, it may be that you are using the wrong slot in the rotor. There are two slots. One for what I call the 277 model and the other for the 443 model which refers to which piston, left or right, is in it's "natural" position and lines up with the stock timing mark on the flywheel. If you add the two possible rotor positions to the other 16 possible choices, you end up with 32 possibilities, except that the rotor position cannot be negated by changing one of the other possibilities. You have to choose the correct slot.
Also, I believe that the original PAMCO 277 had dissimilar dwell angles for each cylinder, so that may explain the difference in spark between each cylinder.
Post by mashermoto on May 30, 2017 22:07:02 GMT -5
Pete, good to hear from you
The original Pamco does still work! All I did was re-solder that white wire that came lose. But I will soon be swapping back to the new Pamco.
The timing issue has to do with this cam. It was ground 180 degrees out of phase. I just re-read my 277 Webcam post in Modified Engines Webcam to refresh my memory. In the picture below, when the slot on the timing chain gear is positioned at the top like the service manual says, you can see the cam lobes are in the valve open position. They should be in the valve closed position. It is true that on a standard cam it doesn't matter if you are on the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke, but with a cam 180 degrees out of phase it makes a difference. With the lobes 180 degree out of phase, the pin location for the advance rod is out of phase, which in turn makes the ignition pin on the advanced rod 180 degrees out of phase. I have found that I can rotate the advance rod 180 and get it close, but as posted above, the pin locations are still out of whack because timing is out of range on the new Pamco ignition. So as I see it, the problem is not with the new Pamco ignition, but rather how the cam was ground. I didn't have this problem with the original Pamco because I just rotated the timing cap (Gerber cap) to match the cam orientation. That's how I came to the solution with the new Pamco; I just set the back plate in the center of the adjustment slots and rotate the timing rotor as needed. The result is it works
Here is a couple of questions for ya. The red power wire on my Pamco Killer Switch is currently attached to the starter solenoid on the battery side. Is that supposed to be on the battery side or the starter side
Also, unless I have something wired wrong with the killer switch, I suspect the alternator may not be charging the battery well. With a fully charged battery, I have about five attempts to start the motor before I have to charge the battery again. That is the case even if the engine starts, but I have to later re-start. Some of that may be attributed to the 13:1 pistons and additional power needed to crank the engine over, but still seems like it should be doing better. Once I get the engine running smoothly I'll do some voltage tests to see if I'm getting 14-15 volts at the battery.
Post by mashermoto on Sept 21, 2018 22:57:33 GMT -5
Hi De Ho good neighbors Believe it or not, Mashermoto's big street tracker adventure is about to come to an end. Finished the paint job last week and the bike is running well I do have a few things here and there to work on, but I was able to get it insured and tagged. Took it on the road for the first time this week
r80rt: :)This is a splendid write up, THANK YOU!!!!
Dec 26, 2015 16:54:05 GMT -5
mashermoto: What the what is this shoutbox for? Or should I shout, WHAT THE WHAT IS THIS SHOUTBOX FOR!
May 12, 2016 22:22:21 GMT -5
motormike: Good Day ...just a FYI.. Wild Cat is this Labor Day weekend. Still go'n on. A few 650's still make the scene. Various rides at different skill levels each day.. awards dinner sunday eve. BS in the park'n lot after dinner.
Aug 23, 2016 7:57:01 GMT -5
lsettle: First post in over 6 years!
Aug 28, 2016 19:45:17 GMT -5
kardon: Wow quiet here, where did they all go.
Oct 7, 2016 2:18:13 GMT -5
gggGary: XS650.com LOL
Feb 16, 2017 20:49:02 GMT -5
buell88: Anybody have any idea who built the xs650 tracker used in the Draggin Jeans Ad on Pipeburn?
May 16, 2017 16:24:09 GMT -5
joshua: The regulator/rectifier unit I got from Mikes PMA has closer hole spacing than original. Are we supposed to mill the holes to fit?
Jun 7, 2017 19:25:58 GMT -5
joshua: My bad. I found the bracket they supplied to mount the rectifier/regulator... Uh oh. How is this meant to work? Which way is it meant to mount? Looks like I have to use some spacers or something. Good instructions would be nice.
Jun 7, 2017 22:09:52 GMT -5
craig8johnson: Not sure if this is the right spot or not but oh well...
Jul 11, 2017 18:04:15 GMT -5
craig8johnson: I'm checking the charging system. I'm afraid I might have fried the last battery. With the solid state regulator (after market) what should it be charging at. The book says, I think, 15 volts. I'm hitting 17 when revved. Is that too high?
Jul 11, 2017 18:06:19 GMT -5
gggGary: Yes 17 volts is too high, about 14 volts is max, sounds like you don't have the right regulator or it's wired wrong.
Jul 13, 2017 6:54:33 GMT -5
dean: Just saying Hello, new member who is going to fix up a 79 XS650 that has seen its better days. I will definitely have lots of questions coming up.
Jun 23, 2018 16:45:32 GMT -5
tt650: Trying to breathe life into a 1980 that's been stored (indoors) for 25 yrs. Air filters are dry rotted. Have cleaned carbs but she only runs briefly on choke then stops. Need jet setting info and other ideas that might help her idle and rev.
Jul 3, 2018 19:15:19 GMT -5
trix13: Hey everyone! New to the forum and am fighting those gremlins!! New charging system, ignition switch, coil and fuse box. Resistance is higher than normal on the ignition pick up so I'm trying to find one. No such luck yet.
Aug 16, 2018 8:50:48 GMT -5
trix13: Also, even though all of my connections are clean, I cannot seem to find out why , when at higher rpms, I hit the signals and the rpms pulse with the signals...hahah. same with the brake light. I appreciate all input!!
Aug 16, 2018 8:55:08 GMT -5
bob99: how do I post a question. I am new to the forum
Jun 6, 2019 10:52:10 GMT -5
adlpc: Hello all! Been enjoying your edifying posts and discussions - and as a fan of the XS650 since my early teenage years happy that I now own a 1980 Special which I plan to turn into a vintage half faired racer. Thank you all for being here!
Oct 1, 2019 0:58:56 GMT -5
jimothyj: Hello everyone, I just joined & wish would have known about this site in 2014 when I brought my 1974 TX650A back from the grave. I have spent a good deal of $$ and alot of time on it. Just painted it and working on electrical, I will post pics soon,
Apr 10, 2021 2:14:13 GMT -5
louisvan: trix13 - I had a problem with my 1975 SX650. When I got to highway speeds, the engine lost power. The problem was in the connectors. At a certain vibration and the wind pushing on the wiring loom, the connector lost continuity. A bad crimp to the wire.
May 20, 2021 1:19:09 GMT -5