Replacement electronic flasher

[dobbz]

after hooking up mini turn signals my thermal flasher wasnt working.. I borrowed a two prong flasher from my old mans hot rod no 552 and it works terrific.. good flash rate!!!

[thomaconda]

Hi All! I used my electronic flasher today, it hooks up using 2 existing wires and needs to be grounded also. The Yellow/Green wire is unused..( at this point)


The "x" terminal goes to the BROWN wire spade in the plug
The "L" terminal goes to the BROWN/WHITE wire spade in the plug. Actually, the unit I have will plug in directly.. the unused Yellow/Green wire is not connected.
The unit flashes GREAT and it is a true electronic flasher, independent of any load. It is a simple timer and will handle up to 20 Amps. It flashes even with no load. I unplugged a rear turn signal and the front kept flashing. I'm now looking at buying 4 Amber LED lamps for the turn signals..

I have an 1157 LED in the tail/stop and love it. I'm not sure why but the self-canceling feature does not work now. In reading around the web, it may have to do with that 3rd wire, I can't seem to find an easy to read diagram of my bike which is a '78 Special. I'd love to get the LEDs to work and still hav it self cancel!! time will tell.. Any ideas?

[thomaconda]

Yes the yellow/green is the trigger from the self canceling module. The stock flasher needs the trigger from the yellow/green to internally close to battery positive. On the turn signal switch, there is a SPDT switch as usual to route the current to the appropriate side, and ALSO a switch that stays closed in either left or right, thus holding on or telling the module to start timing. When you push in, it lets off current to the module and it shuts of the trigger line, thus shitting off the signals. If you wait long enough, the module trigger line goes off by itself and the flasher bat line will break. I have a schematic I found on the web and see now if I put a relay on that yellow/gren line to bat + then to the flasher I think it will work the self-cancelling feature AND using my electronic flasher, work with LED turn signals TOO!!!I'll try to modify it and post it!click here to see the schematics both stock and modified!!!..community.webshots.com/user/tomsat123

[thomaconda]

That elusive yellow/green wire.. I have monitored it .I can't figure out what it should do. My auto cancel was working before I switched flashers.. Now I can't see what that line does. And I've ruined my stock flasher taking it apart to see what was in it..it flashed slow and sometimes not at all and growled sometimes!! lol..there may be a chance that the flasher and the module look at each other in some way, that is the module looks fora certain resistance or voltage, but this is 1978 not the present. I figured that line goes high or low (BAT+or ground) at the event start (there is a momentary contact switch either left OR right..the yellow/red that goes low..ground) or maybe after so long or whatever the yellow/green goes high or low and either pulls out or lets out the stock flasher in some way.
Now I can't see anything happening on that line ..ever. I've checked power and ground at the module, I see pulses from the sensor.. I've hooked up a drill to the speedo cable.. tried everything.. NOTHING.
I'm gonna look for a stock flasher and see if it works, if not maybe I fried the module somehow.. I used a DVM too not a test lite. Any Ideas???

[Polamnus]

FWIW; I'm midway through a complete rewire and got to the turn signal. I was going to go to the local auto parts store and pick up one of these modules you guys are using. I remebered a replacement module I bought a few years ago for a Honda Civic I don't even own anymore. It's a 2 terminal EL12 "Electronic Flasher."

I wish I could say it's working well, but it's only about half and half. It worked fine on one signal, but as soon as I hooked up all four signals, it wouldn't flash. If I tap or knock the shell of the flasher module, it'll start working again, sometimes just for one signal sometimes prepetually thereafter.

Should I just go get an EL13, and if I do is there any reason not to get the 2 terminal if I don't intend to ever use the self cancel feature?

Thanks much, It's a good feeling to see the lights start working, next step, the engine! ;D

Best to all,
Pol

[LarryBart]

Polamnus Hi:

---

Installed a Tritonstand EL-13, $ 9.00 from Advanced Auto, 3 prong flasher.
L= Brown/White Wire
X= Brown Wire
P= Yellow/Green Wire
Works fine, don"t know if self cancel still works and don"t care as I have not run it on the highway yet, however flasher works great.

LBart

( Wellow ) Sheese Had to fix that one. LB

[Polamnus]

Thanks, I bought the exact same thing and it's working flawlessly! The EL-12 I had was sitting around a junk drawer for years, so it very well may have worked but was damaged.

I DID NOT hook up anything to the "P" terminal, no connection at all, it's just not necessary. The self-canceling unit was described in another thread a lot better than I could ever do here, but it's a complex system dependant on the speedometer, flashing unit, and "self canceling unit" which I must assume to be a module or component unto itself. More trouble than it's worth, IMO.

Now to get myself a LED tail light...

Best to all,
Pol

[fnlboy]

Well I must be missing something. The diagram for the flasher circuit shows the only path to the lights to pass through the handle bar switch. Since my switch restores to the middle posistion while the auto-cancel is in operation there must be another circuit not using the main turnsignal closure.

the third wire on a standard flasher is a seperate contact closure to allow a single indicator light to signal operation of either right or left circuit. If you hang a test light from that terminal you will see it flash in sync with the main terminal. It is rated for a much lower current so if you are using non-led bulbs, be sure to use the correct wires or you will burn the contacts due to excessive current.

[Polamnus]

The following is in regards to aa 78SE, but I'd expect it to be the same for most other 650's but like all things this old, YMMV.

This is taken from the 1978SE Yamaha Shop Manual, and can be found complete with wiring diagram on pages 10 and 11 of this PDF file:
www.biker.net/650_service/650_svc_e6.PDF

"The self-canceling flasher system turns off the turn signal after a period of time or distance involved in turning or changing lanes. Generally, the signal will cancel after either 10 seconds or 130 meters, whichever is greater. At very low speed, especially when changing speeds, the cacnceling determination is a combination of both time and distance"

Check the PDF, but you see the third terminal of the original flasher unit does connect to a "Flasher Canceling Unit" That canceling unit has a feed into itself that comes out of the speedometer.

I'm personally not going to even try to make my canceling feature work. A quick slide of the signal lever gets them blinking in whatever direction I press. The selector switch immediately pops back to center possition, but the lights continue to flash. A push straight in, or a quick tap in the opposite direction of the actively flashing side, and they turn off. Honestly, I don't think I'd trust the self-cancel feature, too much could go wrong, and I'd feel inclinded to double-check what's supposed to be automated, negating it's utility.

Still, if you can get it to work, I'm sure there are plenty of folks who would appreciate knowing more.

Best of luck,
Pol

[thomaconda]

I'm still going to try to get the self-cancel to work with LEDs. The handlebar switch has 2 functions. the first one is like any other left/right switch.. it routes current to one side or the other via a spdt switch..the front and rear lamps are in parallel and the flasher makes and breaks, either by a thermal breaker or an electronic one. Secondly, the handlebar switch contains a momentary contact switch that makes a connection in either the left or right position. This momentary contact triggers the self-canceling module to "ON" passing current from the battery to the flasher via that 3rd wire.. the stock flasher's 3rd wire is a flasher input or relay line that "turns" on the flasher. After the alloted time/distance, the module turns off the flasher trigger. the signals go off but The left or right contacts stay in their position until the next time they are pushed left or right and the whole affair starts over. I believe I can put a relay in series with that 3rd line to the flasher and pass bat voltage to the flasher with it, but I just haven't gone at it yet!! I made a mistake of ordering Amber LEDS but they point straight and they don't show up!! You need to get RIGHT ANGLE LEDS Also when I placed all 4 leds into my signals, I had some kind of backfeeding going on.. all the signals lit up!! Maybe the common thing would be the indicator lamp.. I need to study and make test and possibly install a diode somewhere.. it is either that or the leds draw so little current that I need to insure a beter ground exists.. thos pesky stud grounds are bad enough with stock bulbs let alone something that only draws a few ma..whew andbody have any more thoughts???

[Six-Five-O]

Yep...Going along with what Steve and Larry said about the Tridon/Slant brand, EL13, 3 prong electronic variable load flasher. I hooked one up today with the K&S mini turn signals [23 watt "marker light' type of bulbs] and it works fine..I'm not sure if the self cancelling feature is still functional, as I have not had the chance to ride, but will report back once I have the chance to check it out..

Without the electronic flasher, the mini bulbs did not create enough resistance to cause the old stock thermal/bi-metallic flasher to get hot enough and work.

My thoughts are, that the Tridon/Slant EL34 flasher units are actually timers, with a preset duty cycle. IMO, anyone looking into using the 1156 type 90/degree LED arrays in their turn signal housings, might look into trying this particular flasher unit..I'm not sure if it will work with the LED arrays, but it would be a less expensive alternative to the 35 watt [or so] "load regulator" normally used with LED turn signal set-ups, IF, the Tridon/Slant unit would in fact, operate the very low current comsuming LED arrays...If not, then I think the additional cost of the 4, 90/degree LED arrays, combined with the cost of the "load regulator", in which requires/use around 35 watts probably is not worth the effort...The 27 watt 1156 bulb used in the stock signal units are pretty bright as they are, and so are the 23 watt bulbs used in the mini turn signals..

Gotta love retro science projects as they apply to our old machines.. ;D

John

[nashvillebill]

I bought a "Super Bright" LED 1157 from PepBoys and it is pretty dim. I put my real 1157 back in. Do any of these LED bulbs have a bright enough output? Are they rated in candellas or some other standard measurement?

[Polamnus]

LEDs are notorious for having a very narrow field or cone of projection. Also, as Six-Five-O has said in another thread, there are vastly different levels of quality in regards to LED makers.

The best thing I've see, although not ordered yet, is this "Matrix" style LED cluster that actually has LEDs pointed radially outward so as to make use of the tail light's reflector, something most cheap LEDs just don't do.

Here's the link to a current Ebay auction:
cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&tc=photo&item=2478523860&category=33713

Good luck, I'll be buying one of these eventually and will report back my thoughts once I do.

FYI, this is getting a little off-track topic-wise, there is a better thread for LED discussion here:
xs650temp.proboards29.com/index.cgi?board=Charging&action=display&thread=1079442451

Best to all,
Pol

[thomaconda]

Don't forget that this LED points to the SIDE not the REAR. The original bulb emits light from the sides and the LED does NOT. I'm trying to find out if there is a right-angle LED that would point to the rear, but am aftraid the locating pins in the bayonet base may be in a random pattern, making it impossible to make the LED point to the rear. I think the solution is to merely replace the old style signals with some newer style self contained LED marker lamp or something similar!!.
On the self-canceling debate, I'm willing to bet that unless you use the original flasher, and regular bulbs, therw will NO SELF CANCELING feature. A circuit in the original flasher combined with a module work together in unison to do the job.

[Six-Five-O]

Yes, there has already been a great deal of discussion about the fact that 1156 & 1157 type LED arrays emit 99% of their light straight out the ends of the individual LEDs contained in the array cluster...

Most of the *quality* purpose built, 90 degree headed 1156 type LED arrays, are constructed with the thought in mind that the base, and base locating pins are required to be affixed to the array circuit in a location that assures the 90 degree head array will be pointing in the correct direction. Do be advised there ARE vast differences in the quality of the individual LEDs used in making up bulb arrays, , plus the components used in the the contruction of the circuit board and of the board materials. Right now, LEDs are a very hot retail item, and just like any other trend, the retail waters are full of snake oil salesmen..


Ok, for my purposes, I have practically abandoned the idea of using the larger [stock 1156 type] 90 degree LED arrays, due to the idea I wanted smaller turn signal housings and the idea that 90% of the LED sales "specialists" have insisted that at least a 35 watt load regulator is required for the LED arrays to flash using the stock flasher unit..My thoughts are, since the regular 1156 type of bulb used in the stock turn signals consume 27 watts each when lit up [54 watts total with both bulbs in use] the remaining 19 watts savings difference between the stock bulbs draw, and the draw of the 35 watt load regulator with the LED arrays, does not justifiy the intial cost of the 4, 90 degree LED arrays AND the 35 load regulator.

In the end, since I have installed 4 small K&S signals and the 3 prong variable load electonic EL13 flasher, I would like to try and locate some small , 90 degree headed mini LED arrays and give those a try with the electonic flasher..

One last note:

The self cancelling feature does not work with the EL13 flasher. I'd venture a guess that the old thermal flasher does have a special circuit of some type, or that the reed sensor in the speedo head just does not work with the electronic type of flasher unit...Not a huge problem though. ;D

Have fun, and keep those proto/moto science projects rolling.

John